Dividingword's Blog


Can Christians Get Away With Being Carnal?
January 24, 2012, 12:04
Filed under: Eternal Security | Tags: , , , , , ,

The idea of there being a “Carnal Christian” is a myth.  This is nothing but a popular theology that allows sinners to feel comfortable in their pews and in their sins.

The classic verse in defense for the “Carnal Christian” position is found in 1 Cor. 3:1-4.

“And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?”

Here Paul could not speak spiritual things because they were not behaving as if the Holy Spirit were guiding them.  He had to speak unto them as carnal.  They were acting no different from non-Christians.

QUESTION: If you attend a local assembly, is everyone in that assembly a Christian?

Of course not.

Referring to a church collectively as Christians does not mean that ALL in that assembly are Christians. The apostle John warned us about those who are not really of us. (2 John 2:19) Paul was addressing these people at Corinth who were involved in uncleanness, fornication, quarreling, jealousy, fractions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. (2 Cor. 12:20-13:5).  What most people miss who are under the delusion of the Carnal Christian myth is that Christians (faithful ones) should not have fellowship with these “Carnal” people. (1 Cor. 5:11-13).

Because of their quarreling and jealousies Paul said they ARE carnal. 

 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?”

The Meaning of the Word Carnal 

The Bible’s usage of the word carnal ranges from things that are natural to the sensual.  There are only four instances in the New Testament where it is not necessarily sinful or depraved.

  1. In Hebrews 9:10 we have “carnal ordinances.”  These ordinances govern the everyday life of Israel.
  2. In Hebrews 7:16 we have “carnal commandments.”  This has to do with one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry.
  3. In 1 Cor. 9:11 we have “carnal things” that relate to food, clothing, housing – all these are carnal things.
  4. In Romans 15:27 we have minister unto them in carnal things.”  This has to do with the duty of the body of Christ to make sure preachers have carnal things to assist them in their ministry.

In 2 Cor. 10:3 we have, “though I walk in the flesh.”  This has nothing to do with being sinful but what is natural.  God is the author of our flesh (Exodus 4:11, Isaiah 44:2, Jer. 1:5), which is made out of dirt (Gen. 2:7, Gen. 3:19).  On the other hand, it is sinful to walk according to the flesh (2 Cor. 10:2), but it is not sinful to walk in the flesh (2 Cor. 10:3).

Adam was created carnal and all his descendants are carnal.  All mammals are carnal.  Jesus was carnal.  Jesus had a carnal body, ate carnal food, lived in a carnal house, and provided the carnal needs of others (fed them food and healed them).

The word “carnal” is used to describe two things.

  1. It describes the composition of a person (natural with natural needs)
  2. It describes one’s orientation.

The carnal composition is not sinful; it is just natural – fleshly, with natural needs.  The one whose orientation is carnal has to do with a person whose mind is geared over the temporal rather than over the spiritual and eternal.  His mind is set on fleshly things to gratify the flesh.  We can use Adam as an example.  Adam, like the rest of us, had two planes of reality; one which was carnal and the other spiritual.  We can express ourselves without conflict, but one of these is going to be in the driver’s seat.  God gave us the ability (free will) to take control and discipline ourselves over our natural carnal drives.  In the case of Adam, he chose to exercise his carnal drive in the act of eating from the tree, which was not sinful in itself, but what made it sinful is that he went against the authority of God’s commandment and ate from the forbidden tree. Though flesh in itself is not sinful, it becomes sinful when we prefer something over the will and commandment of God.

The other usage of the word carnal does have to do with sin.

Now, not too many people care about the commandments of God.  They would rather indulge in sexual immorality, lusting, or causing others to lust, drunkenness, quarrelling, outbursts of anger, jealousy, dirty jokes, dirty movies, hatred, slandering others, etc.. (See Gal. 5:19-21 for a list)

Our flesh is the occasion of our sin, or the source of temptation (James 1:14), but sin itself is a choice (John 5:14, John 8:11, Rom. 6:12; Rom. 6:19 Eph. 4:26). Flesh is nothing but an inanimate conglomerate of biological tissue that has no moral quality. However, if the SOUL living in the body of flesh gives itself over to exist for bodily satisfaction by becoming filled with inordinate lusts, then it is flesh full of sin - in the Bible called “sinful flesh.” The flesh is not sinful by nature, it is sinful by application. WE are the APPLICATORS.

There are no carnal Christians; there can’t be. Remember what was said above about the composition of person which is not sinful, but one’s orientation can be.  Here is what the Bible says about being carnally minded,

“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” Rom. 8:6-8

The orientation of one’s mind will set his affections for the flesh by opposing the spiritual.  One cannot be carnally minded and spiritually minded at the same time.  Jesus says,

“For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” (Matt. 6:21)

“A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.” (Matt. 12:35)

We will be either guided by the Holy Spirit or follow our own desires that are in direct opposition to God’s commandments.

One cannot please God that are in the flesh.

“So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom. 8:8)

We must also clear up the meaning of “flesh.”  The word “flesh” in the Greek is “sarx.”  It simply means flesh, like our body of flesh – skin. When we talk about “flesh,” we are not talking about fighting some mysterious “other self” that co-exists within that is striving for supremacy.  This is pure philosophy and comes from the false doctrine of Original Sin, or Total Depravity.  This has to do with the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21).

Our body has carnal needs. It drags us to the table, to the toilet, to the doctor, the dentist; it needs to be warm when it is cold, the stomach needs food when it is hungry.  There is nothing evil with normal appetites.  However, circumstances or motive can turn a normal appetite into a sinful act.  It is knowingly putting appetite before or above consciousness of duty.  In other words, if I decide to take a meal to the park and get ready to sit and have a delicious lunch and just a few feet away from me I see a starving individual just staring at me and I pay no attention to his need, it would be sinful not to share that meal. Now before we go off into limitless possibilities and the ifs, I know we can’t feed all the starving people around the world, much less those in our own county, but sometimes circumstances arise where we can do something that is set before us where we are capable and have the means to help.

We make our flesh sinful by the deeds we do.  And flesh (body) is sinful because the applicators who have corrupt passions in the heart manifests itself in the body.  It is then called “works of the flesh.”  Note in the following verse how “flesh” has to do with the “deeds” of the body.

“For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.” (Rom. 8:13)

So you see, what manifests in the body is what comes out of the heart of a person. (Matt. 12:35).  Like I said, this has nothing to do with the fictitious doctrine of Original Sin and born with a “Sin Nature.”  It has nothing to do with a dual personality disorder or fighting some mysterious “other self” that co-exists within a person.  It is the HEART that must be dealt with and our own desires. (James 1:14)

Carnal Christians?  No such thing exists.  If a person is carnal he lives according to the flesh (deeds – works – because of the desires of his heart).  Carnal has to do with sinning, (outside the four that exclude the meaning) and describes a person who is not a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ but rather a person who is depraved by his practice (deeds) of sins.  He is a person who is still in his sins and will die in his sins.

Preachers like Chuck Swindoll will tell us it’s difficult to distinguish a believer from an unbeliever!  Preachers like Charles Stanley will say about so-called carnal Christians, “No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven.  You say, ‘Murder?’ Forgiven.  ‘Stealing?’ Forgiven.  ‘Adultery?’ Forgiven. ‘Worshiping idols?’ Forgiven.”  They say a Christian behaves just like an unbeliever!  That’s what they call a ‘carnal Christian’!

Paul tells us,

Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 6:9,10).

If a person is carnal, then he is carnally minded and to be carnally minded is death. 

We are taught the lie that there are “carnal Christians” and there are “Spirit-filled Christians.” The poor “carnal Christian” is still in bondage to his sins like the unsaved, but he’s still a Christian,  just a carnal one.  This is total fabrication.  Nowhere in the Scriptures, or in reason, traditions or experience are there any expressions for a ‘carnal Christian’.  Christians are called “saints,” “temple of God,”  “beloved of God,” “disciples,” “priests,” “elect,” “servants,” etc. etc., but NEVER a carnal Christian.

 More later…



A Note To All The “Sinful Imperfectionists”

For all of you ”sinful imperfectionist” saints out there (notice the contradiction of terms?), what sin can’t you stop doing for the glory of God and by the power of the Holy Spirit? Or should I say, what sin WON’T you stop doing? All of your excuses (whether you use them as excuses or not) will fall to the wayside when you stand before God – ”I’m only human,” ”I have a sinful nature,” ”the devil made me do it,” ”God’s commandments are too hard to obey,” ”who doesn’t sin everyday?,” ”I can’t help it,” etc..

If you really don’t believe that you can’t go the REST OF YOUR LIFE without sinning, then I can only conclude one or more of the things below about you:

  1. Your ”god” is too weak
  2. Your ”god” doesn’t really want you to stop sinning
  3. Your ”god” has made it impossible to do what he commands you to do, under threat of eternal punishment not to do it
  4. What Adam ”did in the Garden” is more powerful then what GOD DID to you when you were born again
  5. You love your sin more than God and would really rather have it then Him

Oh, and just to address it before it comes up, it doesn’t matter when the ”last time I sinned” was. EVEN IF I sinned a minute before I posted this, it wouldn’t change the facts written above and below (of course I DIDN’T DO THAT). EVEN IF EVERYBODY sinned every second of their lives, it wouldn’t change the facts that are written above and below.

The Bible makes it clear that God commands EVERYONE to stop ALL sinning (Matthew 5:48, John 5:14, John 8:11, 1 Peter 1:13-16). You CAN (notice ability there?) do all things through Christ who strengthens you (Phil. 4:13). God does not let you be tempted beyond what you are able (notice ability again) to bear and provides a way out every time (1 Cor. 10:13). If you walk according to the Spirit, you won’t sin (Gal. 5:16). God’s commandments are not a burden to keep (1 John 5:3-4). If you don’t keep God’s commandments, you don’t love Him (John 14:15), you don’t know Him (1 John 2:3-4), you aren’t cleansed and have no fellowship with TRUE saints of God (1 John 1:5-7) and you are of the devil (1 John 3:8). The Scriptures couldn’t get any clearer friends!

(Thanks to Kerrigan Skelly)

More later….



Sins of Omission?
November 17, 2011, 12:04
Filed under: Eternal Security | Tags: , , , , , , , ,

The following is one verse, among many, used to try and prove the false doctrine of unconditional eternal security.

Have you read James 4:17?  Do you visit hospitals everyday? Do you feed the poor? Do you have any evil desires?  Do you always do the good that you ought to do?  Do you take care of orphans and widows? Do you ever put anything before God?  Do you ever cause discord?  Are you ever envious?  Do you get angry?  I can name hundreds of things you fail to do everyday. You don’t have a chance. Your works will not save you because there are many things we are commanded to do and you fail to do it all.  You are a hypocrite!

Answer: This is another verse wrenched from its context to try and prove unconditional eternal security.  Like other verses, this too is also used to put others under condemnation and stand hopelessly doomed to a life of sin no matter what.  It’s a no win situation.

This person is in error thinking James says that all omission is sin.

The verse actually says,
James 4:17, “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is a sin.”
If we read the whole chapter and read it in its context, we see James is not dealing with a sin of omission, but one sinning against the light, “…to him that KNOWETH ….”

James, as with the other writers of the NT, writes to keep us from falling back into sin.   From cover to cover God is against sin and there are eternal consequences of those who would want to remain in rebellion against God.  Sinning is not essential to salvation, the stopping of sin is essential to salvation.  Genuine repentance is a condition for salvation. (Mk. 1:15; Lk. 13:3; Acts 5:31; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; Ro. 2:4; 2 Co. 7:10; 2 Pe. 3:9).

Secondly, this person seems to be confused about sin and holiness. Often people come up with this red herring about feeding the orphans, helping the homeless, visiting hospitals, etc.. By their own definition, Jesus Himself would have been a sinner. Did Jesus clothe every person who was naked? Did Jesus take care of  the all the orphans and widows?  Did Jesus heal everyone who came across his path? Did the apostles heal EVERYBODY? God had never demanded us to this kind of standard as the person has imposed upon believers! By his standard he has accused Matthew, James, Paul, Peter, John and most of all, our Savior as hypocrites!

Dear reader, do you not believe that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil?   The Scripture also says that he who commits sin is of the devil. (1 Jn. 3:8-10)  John says, “My little children, I write these things unto you that you MAY NOT SIN (1 John 2:1). We are commanded to be holy (1 Peter 1:15,16).  Why ignore these and many other passages of Scripture?

To distort the Scriptures as a means to support a sinful life must mean the person has not yet experienced true salvation.

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” Romans 6:16

More later…



The Atonement and Charles Stanley

The following is an excerpt from a critique of Charles Stanley’s teaching by Jeff Paton.  It is well known that Charles Stanley is a strong proponent of the unconditional eternal security teaching.  This false doctrine affects many other doctrines of the Bible, including the atonement.  The fonts in red are from Charles Stanley.  The black is from Jeff Paton.  I have also taken the liberty to add information in article as well.

My experience has been that those who have problems with the doctrine of eternal security have a distorted understanding of what took place on the Cross. You may be wondering, “If our sin demanded a death – but this death involved eternal separation from God – how could Christ pay the penalty for our sin and still sit at the Fathers right hand? If He took our place, would He not have to be separated from God?

As Christ hung on the cross, God abandoned Him. The separation was so real that Christ even addressed God differently…..Jesus shouted not “My Father” but “My God!” The intimacy was gone. Christ was alone. The penalty of your sin was death, physically and spiritually. Sin demanded separation from life and God.

God’s plan is so simple:

We are guilty.

Our guilt earned us death.

Christ died in our place.

We admit that we are guilty.

We trust that Christ was punished in our place.

We are declared “not guilty”

That’s it! And yet that is what some argue we can lose. But how? How can I lose Christ’s payment for my sin? Can God declare me “guilty” after he has declared me “not guilty”?

When Christ died, which of your sins did he die for? Which sins were you forgiven of when you trusted Him as Savior? If the sins you commit after becoming a Christian can annul your relationship with the Savior, clearly those sins were not covered at Calvary.

“Was the blood of Christ adequate?” During my own struggles with eternal security, this question used to haunt me. I knew then as I do now that to accept His blood as the adequate payment for my sin settled the question once for all. ( Bold emphasis mine.)

The strongest argument for eternal security is not Scripture, but this theory of the atonement. By Stanley’s own admission, this seems to be the crux of what turned him from his former position on the issue.

I posted his statements at length to allow a fair critique of his position. The fact that he hits this issue directly in three chapters in his book, ( more times than any other issue! ) shows us how essential it is to his argument. In his eyes, the inevitable result of the atonement of Christ demands the desired result – eternal security. Once he accepted this concept of the atonement, it became essential to disbelieve the overwhelming mass of Scripture that he used to believe. Everything had to be reinterpreted to explain away the difficulties it posed to his conclusions. We will see examples of this as we cover later chapters.

Anyone who listens to the sermons of Charles Stanley knows that his references to this argument are frequent and are presented with the air of irrefutability. What he sees as sound Biblical interpretation, I see it as intellectual suicide.

First, to derive key doctrines by inference and not by direct Biblical proof is just outright dangerous! It is also the mark of a poor exegete of the Scriptures! This is not teaching the Bible, it is teaching theology! It is never a sound practice to use the support for a belief as the foundation for that belief; this is pure circular reasoning! I have found in my dealing with Eternal Securists’ that they routinely fall back on imputation and the payment of sins when they find that their few proof texts will not bear the weight of honest scrutiny. I find it shocking to watch a person who just found out that their belief was without Biblical support, fight so tenaciously for that failed doctrine! Knowing that it is not true, and is a lie, you would think that they would abandon it immediately! But this change of heart happens all too infrequently. The main reason is that they want a religion that is a blanket for their comfortable, sinning religion.

Pride also comes into play, “What will people say? How do I face people and admit that I have been wrong all these years”? No doubt this is a crushing change because is hits at the core of what we believe to be the gospel. I know that it is, I’ve been there.

By exposing some misconceptions, and making some observations about the atonement, I will be stepping on many toes, including many who do not believe in unconditional eternal security. This will be a touchy subject since, to most, I will be attacking what they have held as lifelong beliefs. I hesitate to embark on the issue since I cannot do justice to the doctrine within the scope of this discussion. But since it is the Key to the doctrine that Charles Stanley espouses and propagates, I am obligated to spend time on this subject in order to do justice to this article.

Let me start with the observation that there are many theories of the atonement. Throughout history, the idea of what was the “orthodox” doctrine has been determined by the widespread acceptance of its day. With the transition of time, teaching on this subject has moved from a very broad and basic understanding, to the very specific and detailed model we have today. Any expansion of the doctrine apart from the Scriptures is theory. All theories of the atonement delve into the area of speculation. The problem is, that we buy into the theoretical and accept it as if it were Scripture itself. Now, I am not saying that theory is bad, but that it is dangerous to accept the Biblically unsubstantiated parts as absolute truth.

The theory that Charles Stanley holds to is what is called the Penal Satisfaction View of the atonement. It is no doubt the most widely accepted theory today.

Substitution, also known as the “penal satisfaction theory” is the theory that Jesus took our place on the cross, died in our stead, suffered the guilt and punishment that rightly belongs to us, became a curse in our place; everything was done in our place as our substitute. This became the predominant theory among Protestant churches generally and we can pinpoint the origin of it.

     From the second to the eleventh centuries, religious leaders did little more than quote scripture and use Bible terms to express the sacrifice of Jesus. All of that changed in the eleventh century with Anselm.

     ”Anselm was a godly Italian, who first settled in Normandy, and then in 1093 following the Norman Conquest was appointed Archbishop of Canterbury. He has been described as the first representative of medieval ‘scholasticism,’ which was an attempt to reconcile philosophy and theology, Aristotelian logic and biblical revelation. Although he included in his writings a number of biblical quotations, however, and referred to Holy Scripture as ‘a firm foundation,’ his overriding concern was to be ‘agreeable to reason’ (ii.xi).” John R.W. Stott, The Cross of Christ, page 118.

Though several of the conclusions of Anselm were later rejected, he set the tone for the Protestant Reformation with his approach of philosophy and logic instead of taking his position strictly from biblical evidence.  Few have heard anything else, and that is why what I am about to write will seem so shocking and outright blasphemous to most. The problem is that most have blindly accepted almost every element of this theory as Gospel truth apart from any clear consensus from the Scriptures.

Nowhere does the Scripture say that Jesus paid for sin, or that he was punished! By this statement, I have probably shocked most of my readers! Stanley’ theory of eternal security demands that sins are “paid for.” This ensures the end result, the salvation of the one who’s sin debt has been paid. This theory is nothing more than a mere assumption. There is not a singular statement in all of Scripture that unambiguously states this, so why would anyone dogmatically claim it as Scripture fact unless their doctrinal idol were threatened? The belief that Christ was punished also has problems. These difficulties and more will be discussed in the next section.

Several questions must be answered. If these doctrines are carried to their logical end, then where do they lead us? The first issue will be whether Jesus paid for our sins. Stanley said, “How can I lose Christ’ payment for my sin? Can God declare me “guilty” after he has declared me “not guilty”?

When Christ died, which of your sins did he die for? Which sins were you forgiven of when you trusted Him as Savior? If the sins you commit after becoming a Christian can annul your relationship with the Savior, clearly those sins were not covered at Calvary.”

With careful questioning and logic, Stanley hopes to lead you down the primrose path. This is known as the sins paid for, past, present, and future approach. If your sins were paid for at Calvary, which sins? All of your sins! In fact all of your sins were future sins 2000 years ago! If all future sins were paid for, then there can never be a possibility of being judged guilty in the future. The result of this? Eternal security of course! This sounds surprisingly logical on the surface, but leads to some difficult questions.

If it was a payment, who was the payment made to? The Scripture does not tell us. So how can we build such seemingly conclusive doctrines based on this? In fact, I will state that the reason that the Bible does not tell us is because there was no such payment!

If it was a payment, who was paid for? The sins of the world! 1 Jn. 2:2, He gave Himself a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6. Here is where the problem comes in. If this payment was real and absolute as Dr. Stanley argues, then we must ask some important questions. If the payment of sin is irrevocable, and the one who’s sin is paid for must infallibly make it to heaven, then we must accept Universalism. If Jesus paid for all, then all must be acquitted on Judgment Day. Since unbelief is sin, and all sin is paid for, then belief and faith are heretical additions to the Gospel! When were your sins paid for? Two thousand years ago! So, salvation is automatic, and the born-again experience is nothing more than waking up to the fact that you have been saved all this time! If you say that it does not come into effect until you have faith, then you have two problems. Show me where it is in Scripture that Jesus is an Indian giver and un-pays the sin in the unbeliever! If He can do this, then why can he not un-pay it for the one who falls away and ceases to believe? Secondly, if you are not saved before faith, then the payment cannot be real and absolute, it is figurative and cannot carry the guarantee eternal security.

Consistent Predestinarians’ ( Augustine, Calvin and Beza, who took the existing commercial and ransom theories and developed them further to what we see today,) hold that the atonement is limited for only those who God has determined to save. If you believe that God is not willing that any should perish, and that salvation is available to all, you show your inconsistency with your use and application of this theory of the atonement.

If Jesus paid for all sin, then salvation cannot be of grace. The cause of salvation is by the merit of payment. Everyone therefore deserves to go to heaven!

If Jesus paid for sin, then there is no such thing as pardon or forgiveness! If I stand before a Judge, guilty of an infraction of the law, he has two options before him. He can pardon, and forgive me, or, he can levy a punishment or a fine. He cannot do both, it is one or the other. If he accepts payment for my violation from an outside source, then the interest of justice is satisfied, and I must be released without any further obligation. If my fine is paid, there is nothing to forgive! The opposite is also true. If he offers a pardon, he must forgo punishment. What the Penal theory must accept is, if it was paid, then God has never forgiven anything! The payment theory of the atonement voids the possibility of forgiveness.

The mercy of God is also voided by this theory. Mercy is the withholding of that which is due. But Stanley says that punishment was not withheld, that Jesus was punished for the world’s sins. This makes the concept of mercy within God nothing but cheap rhetoric. He is not merciful but demands His pound of flesh! We must conclude that this payment shows that mercy is nonexistent in the nature of God since He demands that every sin must be punished.

The conclusion of all of this is that in order for Stanley’s unconditional security to work, there must be a real and absolute payment at Calvary. If the death of Christ brought a legal satisfaction, then those who’s debt has been transferred at the cross, must from that point remain free from all obligation and punishment. If you believe the Scripture that Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins; and not for your only, but also for the sins of the whole world,” then you must accept that there will be no one in hell but the devil and his demons. If all our sins are paid for, then everybody must be saved since unbelief is a sin! This is where Stanley’s payment theory takes us! This conclusion can be ignored, but it cannot be escaped.

The idea that the atonement was a payment demands that Jesus was punished on the cross.

Charles Stanley boldly states that, “We trust that Christ was punished in our place.” He can only “trust” this, since he does not have one unambiguous statement from Scripture to prove it!

The Bible never states even one time that Jesus was punished on the cross! So we must ask, what did happen on the cross? The Bible unequivocally and without exception reveals that Jesus suffered on the cross. Mark 8:31, The Son of man must suffer. Luke 22:15; 24:46; 17:25, Before I suffer. Acts 3:18; 26:23, That Christ should suffer. Hebrews 13:12, his own blood, suffered without the gate. 1 Peter 1:11; 2:21; 2:23; 3:18; 4:1; 5:1, because Jesus also suffered for us….suffered in the flesh. 2nd Corinthians 1:5, the sufferings of Christ.

Look them up for yourself, then try and find a statement of the “punishment” of Christ, that He was “punished” for our sins, or that the Son of man must be “punished.” You will not find it because it is not true!

You may be thinking that I am splitting hairs here. Suffering or punishment, its all the same, right? No, it is not the same! In order for a man to be punished, he must be guilty. To inflict what is due for punishment upon an innocent man is an injustice. But if a man voluntarily suffers in another’s place to whom punishment is due, it is self-sacrifice and heroism. If it is inflicted by an arbitrary authority, it is injustice on one side, and martyrdom on the other. If I go to jail on the charge of murder, but I am innocent, then I am not punished, because I am not guilty. All I suffer is an injustice. Punishment is a legal term that presupposes guilt. It is an impossibility to punish the innocent.

But, you say, ” Didn’t God transfer my sin to Jesus upon the cross?” Charles Stanley writes, God made a swap. Actually, the correct term is imputation. He imputed our sin to Christ and His righteousness to us. This doctrine may be popular, but it is pure theological fiction! Nowhere, I repeat NOWHERE! Is this hogwash found ANYWHERE in Scripture! Guilt and righteousness are personal and cannot be transferred. You can no more impute wisdom to a fool than you can impute courage to a coward. If you were a thief, I could not impute honesty to you anymore than you could impute or transfer your dishonesty to me. Impute means to “count” or “reckon.” It never means to transfer character! FAITH is imputed (counted) for righteousness. It does not say righteousness is imputed (transferred) because of faith. Nowhere in Scripture  does it say Christ’s obedience or moral character is transferred to us at the time of Salvation.  Christ’s obedience is NON transferable (1 John 3:7) To get the transfer that Charles Stanley believes in, one must read that belief into the passages to come up with this.

Theologian, Richard S. Taylor comments on this theory saying, “This is the belief that God not only imputes our sins to Christ but transfers in His accounting all Christ’s righteousness to us, so that God doesn’t really see our sins; rather He sees us as spotlessly holy in Christ.” (The Scandal of Pre-forgiveness) I have heard this theory propagated on more than one occasion that once we get saved, we are “covered” by the righteousness of Christ. So, when we sin, God looks at us but cannot see our sins because all He can see is the blood of Christ.  

Charles Stanley and others who have adopted this fiction must ignore the fact that God is all knowing and cannot be fooled as to the true character of an individual. It ignores the fact that God is the God of all truth, He cannot lie. So how can it be said that God can be the all knowing God of truth and call that which is unholy something other than what it is? If we are to follow this logic, many try to extricate themselves from this difficulty by saying that God can see the sin but it only effects our fellowship and not our relationship. But the idea of broken fellowship cannot be reconciled with this doctrine of imputed righteousness. Taylor says, ” If God sees not my sin but my position in Christ, if He views me as clothed in Christ’s righteousness, then how could sin – which has been put to Christ’s account – “break fellowship?” This mysticism and unscriptural idea that character can be transferred from one individual to another is the glue that holds Mr. Stanley’s false assertions together.

The logical course of the Eternal Securist who cannot find a clear and decisive Scripture to defend their position is to fall back upon their twist on the atonement. If sins are “paid for” in the atonement, the logical end is inevitably the salvation of the one who is “paid for.”  The conclusion of such an atonement holds regardless of what the Bible may say or not say. It is a creation outside of the Bible and does not need the Bible for endorsement. 

This view of the atonement was developed to support and defend the conclusions of the Calvinistic system. The difficulty I have with this “theory” is that it was created to fill a “theological void” within the Calvinistic system. I could understand that if this view of the atonement was the clear and established understanding throughout all Christian history. If it was the only view, it may have more merit, but Church history validates the newness of this thought within Christianity. 

This idea of “payment for sins”  is so essential to the Eternal Securists’ argument that it is assumed to be the truth without any critical examination. What follows in this mode of arguing that they have is, if they cannot prove their point from Scripture, they move onto the next step in their theology which is payment for sins, and if they cannot prove that, the next step is punishment.

If Christ was punished, then we must explain why.  We cannot imagine that this could occur without good reason. From this, they conclude that the punishment must be for the payment of sins, but this assumes too much. The idea of punishment does not prove in any way that sins were paid for.  To have a payment however, we must assume that there was a punishment. This circular logic of theirs is dogmatically asserted without any critical examination.

When arguing this issue of unconditional security, we will find ourselves going down a predictable road. Scripture cannot prove Eternal Security, so they fall back on the idea of a payment for sins. If they are challenged to prove this assertion, which they cannot, then they fall back on the next best thing they believe that supports their notion, which is punishment. 

Does it really matter if the Scriptures disprove the idea of Eternal Security and payment for sins? Does it reallymatter if that which we believe is nothing more than a baseless and unproven theory? I think it does!  

By now you have probably started to flip through your Bible and started to catalog the verses that you believe disprove my statements. This is good, and I hope to address some of these issues.

Payment: Let me state that propitiation, reconciliation, justification, redemption, being brought near, putting away sin, suffering, dying for sin, and offering oneself up, is not payment. This I hope will narrow the field to the more important passages.

Doesn’t the Bible say that we were “bought” with a price? That we are a “purchased” possession? That were “redeemed” and there was a “ransom?” This is without a doubt true! But none of the above statements say, show, or prove in any way that Jesus was punished or that there was a “payment for sins.”

In what way were we bought with a price? This is in reference to the high “cost” that the Son of God took upon himself in order for us to be saved. The same terminology is mentioned every Veterans Day. Much talk occurs about the high “cost” of freedom, and how many “paid the price.” Ask yourself, if only one person died on our side in World War Two, could we not still say that the individual that died “paid the price”? It is not that 200,000 deaths “purchased” freedom in any way. If only199,999 died, would we have lost the war? You see, it is not a mathematical equation, one Christ does not equal the value of “X” number of sinners. There was a cost, but it was not the payment for sins.

We are His “purchase.” This also says nothing of a fictitious payment of sins. By the self-sacrifice of Jesus, that which was hopelessly lost on it’s own, became savable because of His death. Anyone that is ultimately saved is due to His atonement. His death on the cross gives Him the rights to whatever fruit it bears.

Some see the term of “redeem” as positing the necessity of a payment. The fact that the exchange of His life for those that believe explains this redemption. There was a cost, and it was not a payment for sins. Payment for sins can be assumed if it is read into this passage, but it cannot be drawn from it. Ransom can also be seen as an exchange without interjecting non-Biblical ideas of payment into it.

Punishment: This will take a little more detail. First, I want to cover a few arguments before we look at the Biblical passages.

If sin is personal, and as shown, cannot be transferred to another, then wouldn’t that make God the Father unjust by punishing the innocent? It certainly would!

Also, what would the punishment of the Son do to our concept of the Oneness of the Trinity? You see, if we go by Charles Stanley’s understanding, God the Father is seen as a Holy Being that must punish sin, and by necessity, desires that we would be the subject of His wrath. The Son on the other hand, is desirous of interceding and saving us. So by some strange imagination, God the Father is placated by “whooping up” on the Son. Can you see the absurdity of the Godhead punishing itself? It is tantamount to slapping yourself around and saying that makes forgiving others a possibility now.

According to Stanley, the Second person of the Godhead was separated from the First and Third while on the cross. Can you see the impossible contradiction here? The Trinity is One. If you can separate the Trinity, or take one Person from it, then you no longer have God. God is the Trinity at all times! The Oneness of the Trinity cannot exist if the other Two punished the Son. What we end up with are three Gods instead of One! How could Jesus be God if He were not part of the Trinity? This difficulty vanishes if we believe the Biblical data that Jesus voluntarily suffered for our sins instead of the absurdity of saying that He was punished.

How do we then reconcile the words of God who’s voice burst out from heaven saying, “this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” and just before he went to the cross Jesus said, “not my will but thy will” and followed through with faithful obedience. How can we believe that the Son, who is the object of blessing could moments later become the subject of wrath while he was in full obedience? 

I find it much more tenable to believe that the entire Trinity was at work providing our salvation upon the cross and that God the Father was always well pleased with the Son. The cross was not the scene of the Father hurling the thunderbolts of wrath down upon the Son, but Calvary was the scene of wondrous mercy and love. 

Another problem for this theory of punishment is that it pretends to believe in the necessity of retributive justice. The belief is that God must punish sin, and that this punishment must be eternal separation from His presence is the basis in which they believe the punishment of Christ is a necessity. The difficulty arises when we consider that the rules are unbending, and that Jesus is not being tortured in hell as we speak! If He bore the punishment that is due to the whole world for sin, then he must be forever separated from God. Absolute, unbending justice demands this! Keep in mind, if He “paid” for just one person, this would be the result! 

Securists claim that the “quality” of Christ was sufficient to pay for the sins of the whole world, and to release Him from the obligation of eternal separation. This is pure invention and nonsense! No Scripture explains this problem away, and the fact that they admit a compromise in the rules they imposed upon God, proves that He was not sufficiently punished in order to atone for our sin! This requirement would render Christ’s work as questionable at best.

Now to the question of the Biblical verses. Doesn’t Isaiah 53:4-5, state that while Jesus was on the cross, God was going to punish Him? “Surely our grief’s He himself bore, And our sorrows he carried: Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, Smitten of God and afflicted, But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.” This is without a doubt the clearest prophecy about the nature of the atonement the Messiah was to suffer. Most who see a penal theme to this have not ever read the prophecy without a preconceived bias. Notice that it says, we did esteemed him as stricken, smitten by God. Those who saw Christ suffer, instead of understanding that he was bearing the weight of the sins of others in a mediatorial capacity, imagined that he was suffering at God’s hands for his own sins. God knew that people would misconceive what was transpiring on the cross. The passage does not state implicitly or indirectly that God was to smite him in any way.

Many see the term of chastisement as carrying the idea of punishment. It can carry the idea of discipline and correction. Keep in mind that if someone bears the “chastisement” for you, does not mean that they were punished. Punishment requires guilt. To suffer the consequences of the penalty for another is not strictly punishment.

Verse 10 states that “Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him.” In what way was God active in bruising the Son? Genesis 3:14, 15, says, “And the Lord God said to the serpent….I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heal.” It states clearly that the devil will do the bruising. But the crucifixion could not have occurred apart from God willing, and allowing it happen. In view of this, and that God foreknew the result that atonement would bring, it can be said that God was pleased to bruise him. It brought the desired result; reconciliation between God and man. The Trinity, working as One to reconcile the world to himself.

 ” God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.” 2 Cor. 5:19

In Isaiah 53:4, God said that unbelievers would misinterpret the Son’s work on the cross, confusing it with the wrath of God falling upon Him. Today, false teachers misinterpret the work of Christ in the same way!

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Is used by Charles Stanley to vindicate the separation of the Godhead. There are two options that alleviate the difficulty of destroying the Trinity. First, the word “forsake” does not always mean to separate. In this case it means to “leave in the lurch,” that is, to withhold the hand of protection in the hour of Christ’s greatest need. This is “forsaking” without separating. It means to refuse to rescue from this situation. For many reasons we must consider viable options that coincide with Scripture and bring honor to God without causing a division within the Godhead, thereby preserving the Oneness of The Triune God.

Another option is that the words of Christ were cries of humanity in which he “felt” abandoned, when in actuality he was not.

The words, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” refer back to Psalm 22, which is a prophecy of the gruesome death that the Messiah was to suffer. The Psalm illuminates our first option by stating “why are thou so far from helping me?” The question resides in which way was God “far from helping Him,” and “forsaking” him. The text of Psalm 22 reveals this a little more clearly. The abandonment that was experienced was not a separation in the Trinity because of the Father’s displeasure, but an abandonment to suffering. In Psalm 22:1, it was the feeling of the righteous man that God is “far from helping him.” To say that this is depicting an actual separation from God is out of harmony with subsequent verses that express the righteous man’s confidence in God’s presence and help. (verses 4, 9, 19.) 

In this Psalm which is doubtlessly a prophecy concerning the crucifixion, we are told the exact opposite of what Charles Stanley is teaching us. Concerning the cry of perceived abandonment that we read in Psalm 22:1, we must balance this in the light of what follows in its context in 22:24, “For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.” Psalm 22:24

God the Father did not turn His back on Jesus, and there was no rift in the Trinity. God the Father and the Holy Spirit “forsook” the Son only in the sense that they did not rush in and rescue him during his immense agony and suffering. Also, take notice that nowhere in this detailed prophecy does it even imply that the atonement was a punishment or payment for sin. 

“For he hath made him to be sin for us.” Many interpret this as sin-offering as most Bibles footnote this. This avoids the absurdity of saying that God is the cause of sin in Himself. The Father making the Son sinful in order to punish him. It is preferable to view Jesus as the sin-offering or sin-bearer for us. Whatever sense the becoming of sin is, it cannot be literally becoming sin, or sinful in any way.

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.” Some equate being a “curse” for us substantiates that he was punished for us. This statement by Paul is from Deuteronomy 21:23, in which he purposely leaves off part of the verse, “accursed by God” in reference to Christ.

If that applied to Christ on the cross, Paul would have said so! So in what way was Jesus a curse? Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree. Anyone condemned and executed before men is the object of this curse whether they are guilty or not. If they are innocent, they are still the subject of ridicule and shame, and thereby accursed by men. If guilty or possessing sin, they are considered accursed of God. By this passage, Jesus was not.

“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree.” This can be taken as a literal bearing of our sins, but because of the afore mentioned difficulties, it would be more prudent to interpret this as baring theresponsibility of our sins. The Greek term can, and should be translated as “bare up” our sins. This is the preferable translation. This agrees with the prophecy of the atonement in Isaiah 53:12 where we are told that he Himself “bore up” the sins of many. We cannot support the literal idea of becoming “sin” when there is not any other passage that demands such a literal interpretation.

I have given you many reasons as to why this punishment and payment theory cannot work as Charles Stanley supposes. As I mentioned early on in this chapter, there are many theories as to how the atonement of Christ works, most of which do not make any reference to payment or punishment. Almost all have one thing in common, the death of Christ is the sole means by which we may be saved. So, to deny the Penal Substitutionary theory of the atonement is not a denial of the Gospel.

” God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.” 2 Cor. 5:19

There was no separation of God on the cross, just a united purpose of saving mankind. The atonement is a provision, and not a payment. With this we can still say that the atonement is for all, based upon the conditions of faith and repentance. If there are conditions attached to receiving salvation, then those same conditions must exist to remain saved.

For more on this subject see: “The Vicarious Death of Christ?” 

 

 

 

 

 



God Will Present You Faultless With No Conditions?
November 11, 2011, 12:04
Filed under: Eternal Security, Tid-Bits | Tags: , , ,

There is a passage of Scripture that is commonly wrenched from its context. Jude 24 says, “Now unto him that is ABLE to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory…”

What they (sin defenders) make the verse to say is that God will “infallibly” present them faultless. Unbelievable that people believe God will infallibly present them “faultless” while they continually deny that God can keep them from falling!

Note it says God is “ABLE.” Where does it say God will infallibly do this? The context is that God is ABLE but on the condition of our willingness to continue in Him. Verse 21 says, “Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”

The condition is that we “keep ourselves in the love of God,” thus He is ABLE to “keep us from falling” and is ABLE to “present us faultless” before the presence of His glory.

It is twisting Scripture to change the statement that God is “ABLE,” based upon conditions, to “God WILL unconditionally present us faultless.”

More later….



Beware of Paul Washer

 Paul Washer
A Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing

Some Excerpts of his Sermons:

“Let’s just go for just a moment over to Genesis just quickly with me. Chapter 6, Verse 5, “Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” — ‘only evil continually.’ I simple read this text one time preaching at a university and a young reporter came up to me and he said, ‘I don’t agree with your interpretation!’ And I said, ‘young man, I didn’t interpret the text, I read it.’ And he said, ‘well, I dont agree.’ I said, ‘young man let me tell you something…if I could pull out your heart right now, if I could take every thought you have ever had, from your first waking moment until this very hour, if I could take every thought you’ve ever had, not just your deeds, but your thoughts, only your thoughts, and I could put them on a video and I could show that video to all here in this auditorium tonight you would run off this campus and you would never show your face here again because you have thought things so wicked and so perverted you cannot even share them with you closest friend. As a matter of fact, if your closest friend knew some of the thoughts you have had against him, he would no longer be your friend. And young man I do not know that because I am a prophet, I know that because it’s what the Scriptures say and I know that like you I too am a man.’ I can say the same thing about every one of you here tonight. You would spend every ounce of energy to hide from everyone in this room what has gone through your mind just in the last hour. Don’t tell me that Scripture is not right, when it talk about all men having sinned, because all men are sinners. Go to Genesis 8 for a moment, Verse 21: “And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma and the Lord said to Himself, ‘I will never again curse the ground on account from man, for the intent of mans heart is evil from his youth. This could mean, evil from childhood, evil from a babe.”

Paul Washer admits that ‘Calvinism is good theology’, therefore it should be no surprise that he is ready to stretch text in the Bible to fit his biased Theological suppositions. Here we have an example of this deceit. (1 Cor. 4:2)  As we have seen before, Genesis 6:5 is a prime passage for the Reformed Faith’s doctrine of ‘Total Depravity’. Of course this portion of Scripture also speaks of Noah, but as we have learned from other Reformed thinkers, he really wasn’t righteous after all, even though the Bible (Sola Scripture?) SAYS he was! (Gen. 6:9; Ezk. 14:14; Heb. 11:7) The endeavour here by Washer is to connect Genesis 6:5 to 8:21 and in the process PROVE that All men are Sinners, NOT because they imitate Adam and transgress God’s Law of their own volition, but because they sinned with Adam in the Garden! (Federal Head Theory) In trying to advance this tenet, Washer actually disproves it!

“And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, ‘I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth.’” (Gen. 8:21)

Washer is LYING to you when he says the word “YOUTH” can be honestly translated as “babe,” meaning infant of course! The word in the Hebrew holds a strict definition of ”youth or early life.”  An example of this term in another portion of Scripture is found in 1 Sam. 17:33.

“And Saul said to David, ‘You are not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him; for you are a youth, and he a man of war from his youth.’”

Hence, when David fought Goliath he was NOT a “babe,” instead, he was a “young man”! (1 Sam. 17:58)

MANY Scriptures show that man is born innocent and therefore NOT morally depraved as Washer, a Calvinist,  suggest. (Deut. 1:39; Ecc. 7:29; Psa. 139:13-14, etc.)

Another excerpt of Washer:

“Here is something you need to understand, Hitler was not an anomaly. Hitler was not a phenomenon. Hitler was what everyone in this room has to potential of being and not only that, you need to understand that even in the wickedness of Hitler, Hitler was still restrained by the common Grace of God. And you need to know this, if it weren’t for the common Grace of God, restraining you in your unconverted state, you would make Hitler look like a choir boy. What we do not understand is what Scripture teaches about men — men are evil! You say, ‘well I don’t agree.’ That’s because you have grabbed enough of Christianity to stand, but you don’t believe the Bible. The Scriptures testimony is against you, and all men is that we are born with evil and we are evil. Do you have to teach a child to lie? Do you have to teach a child to be self-centered? Do you have to teach a child how to selfish? Do you have to teach a child how to be brutal to other children? They learn that on their own. Set them free, discipline them not, and see what you have in ten years — a monster. Why? Because what Scripture says is true. And you hold your ears and you say, ‘I don’t want to hear it , I don’t want to hear it’…in the same way that a person dying from cancer is in denial and says to the doctor, ‘ I don’t want to hear it, I don’t want to hear it’. That by cupping the hands over your ears you close yourself off from any remedy. The first thing you must embrace is this…all men are born in sin and given over to sin and all men are born hating God.”

The illustration of Hitler is adduced by a lot of Reformed thinkers to promote the Depravity of human nature AFTER the fall. My immediate question to those who support such a position is what about Cain and Able? (Gen. 4) They both came from the loins of Adam and Eve and lived in the POST Paradise era and had the same natures, YET, they both made very different choices. (1 Jn. 3:10-12) According to Washers theology, which is 100% Reformed and Augustinian to the core, the human race from Adam, to this day, is ONLY capable of committing evil acts because Free Will has perished in the Fall, therefore, man has not the ability (apart from PRECEDING Grace tweaking his nature) to be like Able and do the right thing! (What about Acts 10:34-35 & Rom. 2:6-8?)

Next, Washer uses the term “Common Grace”. In Calvinism  this type of Grace is reserved for the reprobate who God has decided He will not redeem by the blood of His Son. (t u L i p) Everyone is allowed this Grace by God according to the theology, however, only the ‘Elect’ get ”Grace upon Grace” (Jn. 1:16) and given the ability not only to believe, but persevere in the faith. Hence, we see that Washer denies human liberty and attributes the heathens restraint from vices – not to FREE WILL, but to God! The problem that lurks beneath this thought is that since there is no freedom of choice, then God is now responsible for all that comes to pass. (This includes the good AND the evil.)

“From all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass” (Source)  To DENY that God is the Author of Sin is to dismiss His Absolute Sovereignty altogether.”

Moving on.

Washer next uses the child’s ill behavior to PROVE that they are born with evil in their nature. (This “evil” is mere concupiscence, which is classified in Reformed theology as a ‘Sin’ in itself and PROOF of our fallen condition, yet, as we have pointed out before, this is in error because it is found in Paradise — Gen. 3:6 & 1 Jn. 2:16) Strangely enough, Washer accidentally explains HOW this “evilness” comes about: ”They learn that on their own” Correct! (Even though this could NOT have been his aim since he believes that the imputation of Adam’s Original Sin ACTUALLY makes everyone sin by necessity.)

Misconduct is a learned pattern, NOT an inbred disease! Children learn from the world around them and imitate what they see. As the Bible says, ”aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers” (1 Pet. 1:18) This is what it means to be a ‘child of wrath’! (Eph. 2:1-3) It’s NOT referring to birth, but instead to ”a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature.” (Source)

The testimony of Scripture is that ”God made man upright, But they have sought out many schemes.” (Ecc. 7:29) The guilt of the first pair is NOT propagated within their physical offspring! (Deu. 24:16; 2 Kings 14:6; 2 Chron. 25:4; Ezk. 18:2-4; 18:19-20; Jer. 31:29-30) Therefore, embryos and infant-children are innocent before God and NOT depraved as Washer has suggested. (Deut. 1:39 & Isa. 7:15-16; Rom. 9:11) ”for where there is no law there is no transgression”, says the Apostle Paul. (Rom. 4:15) Infant children are born blind (no knowledge) and ALIVE without the Law! (Jn. 9:41 & Rom. 7:9) Therefore, until a child “knows to do good and does NOT do it”, there is no transgression with God! (Jas. 4:17 & 1 Jn. 3:4) “Let the little children come to Me and do not forbid them,” says Jesus, ”for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt. 19:14)

The FIRST thing you MUST do IF you wish to escape this horrible theology that Washer promotes is to REJECT what he says you MUST accept, that being, the notion that men and women are born sinners! This is overly stressed by the Reformed movement BECAUSE on it the entire foundation to the T U L I P rest. Until you examine that with Scripture, then you will remain in a doctrinal daze and in bondage to preachers like Paul Washer.

by brother Mike Desario

More later…..



Babies: Those “Awful” Creatures!


by Wayne Jackson

Christian Courier: Penpoints

Monday, August 25, 2003

A frustrated father claims that babies are some of the most “awful” creatues on this earth. Why would someone make such an outlandish statement? Read this article and see.

A sincere person has had a difficult time in dealing with his infant children. In his frustration, he has accepted a theological position that is not in harmony with the Scriptures. He believes that babies are sinners. He does not impute to them the guilt of Adam’s sin (as many religious people customarily do); rather, he charges that infants are personal sinners. Here is how he expressed the matter.

“After dealing with three babies (they are older now) I can make this statement with some authority. Babies are the most tyrannical, selfish, and downright awful creatures in the world. Does that shock you? It shouldn’t. They know nothing but their own selfishness until they are taught otherwise. Toddlers are even worse. If they are not taught to share toys they will scream and beat each other with the toys. We are all born with the sin nature. We are not charged for our fathers’ sins, but we do carry enough of our own.”

One cannot but feel some degree of sympathy for this gentleman. When a parent has to care for an infant for the first time (or even subsequently), it surely is a challenging task. The experience can be intellectually perplexing and emotionally draining. Frequently, we are quite inept in handling the task.

But I feel more than mere sympathy for this individual. I am saddened because he appears to have let the frustrations of the new-parent experience rob him of the overall joy that caring for a new baby can bring. Despite his claim to the contrary, his distressing experiences did not qualify him as an “authority” on this issue. God’s Word is the authority, and it does not harmonize with this reckless, emotionally-oriented defamation of his children.

This father has allowed his discouragement to thrust him into a mode of rationalization. He does not want to take responsibility for his lack of knowledge and experience, and perhaps his inability to cope with stressful situations; rather, he charges that his children were to blame for the unpleasant situations he encountered in caring for them.

There are a couple of things that must be said regarding this gentleman’s misguided characterizations.

  1. Our friend’s disposition is quite the contrary of that entertained by the Lord Jesus. When the disciples asked about the qualities of those who would be the “greatest” in the kingdom of heaven, the Lord called to himself a “little child.” The Greek word for “little child” is paidion, which generally denotes an infant, or a very young child. In this case, the child was old enough to respond to the Savior’s “call,” yet small enough that Jesus picked up the youngster and placed him in the midst of the group (Mt. 18:2). Mark, in a parallel passage, states that Christ took the child “in his arms” (Mk. 9:36). The collective evidence would suggest that this child was what one would call a “toddler.”The Savior did not even remotely suggest that this little one was tyrannical, selfish, and one of the most “awful creatures in the world.” Instead, he exalted the child as a model for those who would aspire to a place in the kingdom of heaven. The Lord’s assessment was light-years from that of the frenzied father under review. In this connection, one should also consider supplementary texts of the same vein (Mt. 19:13-15; Mk. 10:13-16; Lk. 18:15-17).
  2. Mothers and fathers need to apply some common sense to their moments of parental discouragement. In considering the behavior of infants or very young children, one needs to reflect upon the fact that these little ones have not yet learned to understand the nature of their own needs, and how to have them satisfied. They are unable to communicate intelligently to their parents, with such sentiments as: “I am hungry; I am cold; I hurt,” etc.Further, they as yet know nothing of moderation in making requests. They have been designed with certain intense instincts for gaining attention in the absence of more advanced communication skills. As they grow older, they have to be taught, of course, that different types of responses are expected from those who are able to learn at more advanced stages of development. This is the parents’ job.

When mothers and fathers do not take the time to patiently and lovingly instruct their children regarding moderate behavior (or do not know how), in their confusion they sometimes resort to other explanations for why their little ones seem to be unmanageable. At this juncture of their “wits-end” exasperation, along comes the “inherited sinful nature” theory, and they adopt it as a convenient explanation for their own lack of skill and patience.

Children can be taught to behave; it is not an easy task, but the problem is not remedied with false theories that contradict plain Bible teaching.

Youngsters sometimes develop an accelerated level of inappropriate behavior – either because they are not gradually taught to overcome their infantile conduct, or because they learn unacceptable behavior from others. As they grow old enough to observe, they learn to imitate the actions of their associates – even when they cannot yet appreciate the gravity of what they are doing. Sometimes their worst teachers are dad and mom, who themselves exhibit bursts of temper because they cannot deal responsibly with their children or other situations in life.

But infants have no moral culpability. They have no consciousness of a sacred “law” that demands: “You shall not cry, or kick your legs.” They cannot fathom why they cannot have a sibling’s toy that they want so badly. They have no awareness of a divine standard that either “accuses” or “excuses” them (Rom. 2:15; cf. 1 Jn. 3:4). There is no written, “Goo Goo” law from God to which they are amenable!

Incidentally, is it possible that baby Jesus cried at times? Do you suppose that Mary, on those occasions, concluded that this child was one of the world’s most “awful creatures”? The intemperance of our friend’s comments is quite incredible.

Finally, there is this haunting question that the advocates of the “infant sin” theory choose to avoid. When one of these “awful” infants dies, what is his eternal fate? Christ declared that when one dies in sin, he cannot enter heaven (Jn. 8:21). Is the “sinful baby” able to reach out to God for “pardon”? If so, where is the biblical evidence for that assertion?

Can we not fathom the horrible consequence of this doctrine – that babies are “awful” sinners? False ideas such as this should be abandoned on the basis of what God has revealed in His word.



Stopping the Sin

by brother Mike Desario

The great dilemma in the present day Church is at WHAT point does the sin have to stop in order for real salvation to take place? Must it stop before pardon can be granted or after, or does it NEVER stop? Unanimously the Church preaches that God ‘saves you in your sins and cleans you up later,’ BUT the actual stopping of sin remains in question. If the person cannot of his own power stop sinning when he comes to God, WHY is he STILL unable to stop after salvation has supposedly taken place (since everyone will agree that NO ONE EVER stops sinning)?

Any suggestion that the person can indeed stop the evil of his doings BEFORE pardon can be granted is automatically equivalent to ‘saving yourself’ and no longer needing Jesus. Therefore repentance is a confession that you are a sinner, unable to prepare yourself and call upon God and you merely come to Him DOING NOTHING but seeking His forgiveness and mercy as the remedy for your sin. The reason for this is that you are born a sinner, morally depraved by nature, unable within yourself to do anything leading to your salvation until God, by His grace, liberates your free will in order for you to repent and believe. Therefore Christ doesn’t have anything to do necessarily with you stopping any particular sin at initial conversion, only providing His remedy for your ‘sinfulness’ in order for you to be forgiven and have your moral imperfections covered by His blood.

Here is the Doctrinal Statement of Wesleyan Theology:

We believe that man’s creation in God likeness included ability to choose between right and wrong, and that thus he was made morally responsible; that through the fall of Adam he became depraved so that he cannot now turn and prepare himself by his own natural strength and works to faith and calling upon God. But we also believe that the grace of God through Jesus Christ is freely bestowed upon all men, enabling all who will to turn from sin to righteousness, believe on Jesus Christ for pardon and cleansing from sin, and follow good works pleasing and acceptable in His sight. We believe that man, though in the possession of the experience of regeneration and entire sanctification, may fall from grace and apostatize and, unless he repent of his sin, be hopelessly and eternally lost.

The major problem with all of this, is that it is IN REVERSE of the SCRIPTURE! In the Bible repentance CLEARLY means a STOPPING of sin BEFORE pardon can be granted. Note the following:

Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. Isa. 55:7

Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; then the LORD will relent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you. Jer. 26:13

CLEARING of the wrong doing MUST take place BEFORE God can abundantly pardon or relent from His wrath. This follows throughout Scripture without exception. The message of the Bible ASSUMES that man is FULLY CAPABLE of obeying God and DOING what God has said to do, namely repent, STOP what you’re doing, and SEEK His mercy! All the Prophets preached in this manner as did the apostles in the book of Acts.

Again, let’s see what the Bible has to say:

Jonah 3:5-10

“So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying,  Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water. But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands.  Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.”

Here is a clear-cut case of the preaching of repentance and the manner in which the mercy of God is dispensed on the people. NO ONE assumed that their stopping meant anything more than the POSSIBILITY of God sparing them from destruction. They DID NOT need some special grace or even the Holy Spirit to come in and reveal to them the evil of their doings. They knew ALREADY they were in the wrong by the VERY fact Jonah came preaching to them to repent. The Prophet told them the consequences of their actions and gave them the way of escape through repentance.

This should settle all the arguments anyone may have about repentance, but the church ignores it and CONTINUES to preach COME IN YOUR SINS! They insist that you must have the Holy Spirit’s presence to reveal the error of your ways bestowed through some special operation of grace BEFORE you can turn to God and believe. And if you were able to STOP sinning (as the people of Nineveh did) you would NOT need Jesus because you could save yourself. They just can’t seem to connect the dots.

The entire fallacy of coming in your sins is based on being born a sinner. Therefore man is not responsible for his sin, but only receiving Jesus as the remedy for it. Then as the Holy Spirit liberates his free will and reveals wrong doings to him he becomes responsible to forsake those things as a Christian. That’s why NO ONE preaches against or about sin or sinful behavior in the church because it’s the Holy Spirit’s job to clean the people up, not the preacher’s responsibility to point anything out. This mission of the church is to compel people to ‘Receive’ Jesus, not Seek a clearing of wrong doing (2 Cor. 7:10-11). So real repentance NEVER takes place.

Why is sin committed in the dark or covered by lies? The Bible says that men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. (Jh. 3:20-21) They know adultery is wrong.  If they didn’t, why lie to cover their tracts? The Holy Spirit doesn’t have to indwell them BEFORE they are aware these things are evil in the sight of God and must be abandoned. That’s why the ONLY way real conversion has any possibility of taking place is through the preaching of repentance and faith PROVEN BY DEEDS! Man ALREADY knows he is responsible for his sins, his own conscience either accuses or excuses him.

The PROBLEM is when the Church gets into the mix and convinces them they can be SAVED in spite of what they DO! Once a person buys into the Big Lie of being born a sinner, they can no longer conceive the possibility of stopping their sinning. It is simply a foregone conclusion of the message that you come to God in your sins, therefore He cannot possibly hold you accountable for continuing in them since it was NEVER your fault to begin with! Man’s accountability begins and ends with ‘receiving Jesus’ as his remedy.  NO ONE is able to say that the sin has to STOP because they hold firmly to the doctrine of man born in sin. No matter how good they can make it sound or how much they try to back it up with Scripture, the bottom line remains: You CANNOT stop sinning (or even have the possibility of stopping) UNTIL He saves you, fills you with His Spirit and works the sin out of you by process.

Here’s a perfect example of what I mean.  The following is written by a Holiness preacher who believes you can lose your salvation by sinning:

“It takes a work of salvation in the soul to cease from sin. God gives us that power when we are saved. Prior to getting saved, one is under conviction and will bring forth fruits meet (or fit) for repentance, meaning they will be trying to stop some things as much as they can, and discontinue going to places they know are wrong.”

Notice that is has an element of truth to it and speaks of the power of God, conviction and fruits. All Scriptural terms. It seems to fit into the common salvation experience people are having in the churches. But he is extremely careful to point out and ‘strongly suggests’ that the person CANNOT STOP doing what is wrong until God comes in and helps him. (This is the common type answer from pastors.)

Now using your own sense of reason and understanding, DOES THIS match what happened in Nineveh? Were the people UNABLE to stop the evil of their doings until God saved them or did they Do it BEFORE anything happened?  Did anyone in Nineveh ASSUME that their stopping of sin meant they no longer needed God’s mercy extended to them? Or did they obey the command to repent, come before God, PRESUMING NOTHING, and seeking His mercy! Unless you’re blind, the answer is obvious.

WHY then does EVERYONE THINK it happens in REVERSE? It HAS TO BE because of the presupposition that man is Born a Sinner and CAN’T stop sinning! So back to our question:

“When Does the Sin Have to Stop?”

Answer: “NEVER!”  

What This Means:

We asked: “If a person is a child molester does he have to stop molesting children in order to receive Jesus?”

One pastor answers:

 Absolutely not.  A person does not need to stop anything, start anything, or do anything at all to have God or Jesus in their life.

It is just the opposite!  Rather than stopping molesting in order to receive Jesus, it is receiving Jesus in order to stop molesting!

Answer from another pastor:

To answer your question.  I think you can ask Jesus into your heart while still engaging in behavior that does not honor the love of Christ.

“Do we have to stop sinning to be loved by God?”  I think not.  I am always going to be sinning.  So the answer is yes, a child molester can be forgiven without doing anything  The truth is, a person does not have to stop his sin. Being saved does not depend on a person stopping all willful sin.  God does not expect us to stop sinning first, and then seek salvation.  Second, God does expect us to stop sinning after we are saved.

These pastors were honest about what they believe. Most try to conceal it behind a lot of fluff and make sound as though they are not in favor of sin. But there are no exceptions. NONE of them will say outright and plainly the sin has to stop. At best they may say you must be ‘Willing’ to stop, have a ‘Desire’ to stop, even ‘Hate’ the sin, but NEVER ACTUALLY stop!

Think about it:

The man committing adultery on his wife seeks her forgiveness while still attached to the other woman!  The thief is granted forgiveness for his crime WITHOUT returning what he has stolen!  The liar is granted pardon for his lies without telling the truth!  And the fornicator is Spirit filled and forgiven BEFORE he returns to chastity!

All this because of the fallacy that man is Born a Sinner, and the delusion is so strong that it’s inconceivable for anyone in the Church system to think otherwise! They ALL believe God has SAVED them IN THEIR SINS and that NO ONE EVER stops sinning. (Including as you see, flagrant sins of the flesh.) But the real human tragedy of this entire mess is that these people REALLY DO THINK they are going to heaven when they die! And NOTHING you can say to them or show them in the Bible can persuade them otherwise.

“He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Rev. 22:11

More later…



Romans 7:7-25 Is Not About the Struggles Of A Christian
September 22, 2011, 12:04
Filed under: Eternal Security | Tags: , , , , , , , , ,
In Romans 7:7-25, Paul contrasts the pre-Christian condition of the sinner. However, many use this as “proof” to excuse Christians who continue to habitually sin. A careful reading shows this is not about the struggles of a born again believer at the time of this writing, but talking about a person under the law.

There are several reasons why this is not Paul’s present condition or the condition of any born again believer.

Note that Paul wrote five letters before the book of Romans. One of those five letters was to the Saints in Thessalonica (1 Thessalonians) in which he says,

“You are witnesses, and so is God, how devoutly and uprightly and blamelessly we behaved toward you believers;” (1 Thessalonians 2:10).

Does this sound like the person in Romans 7:7-25? It can’t be because this person received the New Birth (Acts 9:17-18), and became a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

It contradicts everything he taught up to that chapter (Romans 1:1-7; 6), but people refuse to believe what they read.

It goes against the teaching of the very verse before it (Romans 7:6), but again they will refuse to believe to defend sin.

In Romans 7:14 he says that he is “carnal” and “sold under sin.” Is this the lot of Paul and every born again believer? No. (John 8:30-36; Romans 6:1-23; 8:1-13).

Sin is not a substance that is transferred from one person to the next. Sin is a moral issue. Sin “dwells” in sinners because CHOICES are made within us. Please keep in mind the Biblical definition of sin as a voluntary commitment to and pursuit of self-gratification (Romans 8:5-7). That commitment “dwells” in us because it is the stubborn set of the soul (the “will”). For example, if greed “dwells” in us, it is because we put it there; we choose the evil passion and hold on to it in our souls.

Twice he says that sin dwells in him (Romans 7:17, 20). Does it really? Then Paul is a hypocrite because he told others to “awake to righteousness and sin not” (1 Cor. 15:34) and how his fellow believers were witnesses, and God, how holy, righteous and blameless he was among other believers. (1 Thess. 2:10)

For the people who defend sin, Do you have sin dwelling in you or God dwelling in you? (John 14:23; 1 Corinthians 6:17; Col. 1:27)

Paul says he is a wretched man (Romans 7:24). Is this the description of the man who said he was “made free from sin” (Romans 6:18)? If Paul had an issue with sinning all the time, then he was of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

Paul’s deep desire and what he wants to know is who shall deliver him from the body of this death (Romans 7:24). How does this fit Paul who is a new creature in Christ, who has already received the Saviour way before Romans 7?

Paul makes it clear in the next chapter that the testimony of his struggle was before his salvation for he testifies that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus had made him free from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2).

It is evident that Paul was not talking about his present condition in Romans 7, but was describing his bondage to sin while under the law, and not his life as a believer who was delivered from the law (Romans 7:6). This is abundantly clear by the fact that right after he describes his bondage to sin and the law before he was saved, he says, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

More later…



Charles Stanley – The Wolf In Sheep’s Clothing

Charles Stanley, Who Is Your Master?
By Dr. Charles F. Stanley
This week’s topic: Freedom In Christ

Charles Stanley: No man or woman is absolutely free.

 Isn’t this week’s topic ‘Freedom in Christ’? 

Charles Stanley: Romans 6:16 says we are the slaves of the one whom we obey – slaves of either sin or obedience to the Lord. Because every human is born with a fallen nature, being the master of our own lives is the same as being enslaved to sin.

Some people reading this are so deceived by preachers like him that they will not see beyond what this man is saying.  The best thing to do is get your Bible out and read it.  Test this man out with the Bible in your hand.

He quotes Scripture and expounds on it with no Biblical support.  Not only that, he MISQUOTES the passage.  The passage actually says,

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

It did not say “obedience to the Lord.”  It says ”obedience UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS.“  There is a contrast there.  One is either a servant of sin unto death, or by obedience unto righteousness.   This ‘righteousness’ has to do with our character.  In other words, how we act. 

The Bible he quotes from says ‘slaves’.  Whether slaves or servants, it has nothing do with losing the ability of using our free will to act wickedly or righteously.  People are not servants or slaves to sin involuntarily. 

His next sentence, which he never gave any Scriptural support, actually cancels out his first.  He says every human is born with a fallen nature.  What he means by this is that every baby that comes into this world is born a sinner.  Since, according to him, you are born a sinner, you are a slave to the nature you were born with and thus enslaved to sin beyond your control. 

Question: If a person is born with this nature that was not his choice, how could that person feel responsible for something that does not spring from his CHOICE but rather GOVERNS his choice?  How can he feel responsible?  He is only doing what comes naturally. 

Stanley is wrong!  When a person sins, he sins AGAINST his nature that God gave him (Ecc. 7:29; Rom. 2:14-15).  A simple lie detector proves this point.

Charles Stanley:  Our heavenly Father’s prescription for this unhealthy situation is submission to Him. But we may reason this way: If I give the Lord control, then I lose it and that’s scary. God could lead me somewhere I don’t want to go.

The real issue Stanley is talking about is ‘sin’ since you were born with a supposed fallen nature.  You need to deal with this unhealthy situation that was given to you by no choice of your own.  Where is it God would lead you where you don’t want to go?  The first thing God wants you to do is get rid of sin out of your life. He is not going to take the excuse you were born with this supposed sinful nature (sin is not a substance).  God formed you in the womb and gave you your soul. Our souls do not come from our parents, but rather from God in its spiritual condition (Eze. 18:4)  

Charles Stanley: When fear seeps into your heart, stop and consider the Lord’s character and motive: He is holy and sinless; He has infinite wisdom, perfect knowledge, and an eternal perspective; He loves you and has the power to work all things for your good (Rom. 8:28). Now compare your credentials to His. Who do you think would make a better master of your life?

The problem, Mr. Stanley, is that one cannot serve two masters! 

There are a few ways to recognize a wolf.  Two of them are:

  1. They reject the doctrine that is according to godliness (1 Tim. 6:-15), and
  2. They will exploit their hearers with great swelling words of emptiness, promising them liberty while in their sins (2 Peter. 2:1-3, 18-19).

Mr. Stanley wants us to concentrate on God’s character rather than work on our own.  God is not going to work in anyone’s life while they remain in sin.  It is imperative to get sins out of the way before the holy Spirit can take up resident.  If a person is still sinning, then that person is not serving God and is not saved.  God does not accept anyone, nor will He give His holy Spirit to a person who remains His enemy.  A sinful person is an enemy and abhorred and detested by God. (Psa. 5:6; 6:8; 7:11; 11:5; Matt. 16:23; Ro. 3:10-18; 5:10; 8:5-8; Col. 1:21; Eph. 2:3; Jas. 4:4; 1 Jn. 2:15-16). 

Charles Stanley:  Do not be discouraged by the magnitude of this call to submission. We can’t attain sinless perfection on earth, but with each step of obedience, sin’s hold will lessen. Press on – you’ll soon begin to live in the freedom of enslavement to the most amazing Master you’ve ever known.

I rest my case.  The issue right along has been SIN and how you will continue to sin for the rest of your life because you were born a sinner, and won’t do anything but sin, and will die a sinner.  SIN SIN SIN.  And the topic is Freedom in Christ?  He means freedom to sin, but less and less!  

He will SCARE you with words like ‘sinless perfection.’  I would rather call it SIN FREE!  Jesus said things like “go and sin no more.”  To another he said, “…thou art made whole: SIN NO MORE, lest a worse thing come unto thee.”  Paul says, “Awake to righteousness and SIN NOT.”  God would not command us to do something that was impossible to do!  Wolves reject the doctrine that is according to godliness (1 Tim. 6:-15).

Repentance is the condition for salvation.  The process of repentance is to sweep, scrape, scrub and cast out of door all defilement of the heart IN ORDER to make it clean for the reception of the holy Spirit. ( 2 Cor. 7:9-11; Acts 5:32)

Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say God will accept us while we are a sinner so that we can sin less and less.  He expects us to stop sinning, and should there come a point in your Christian walk that you succumb to temptation, you are to REPENT (stop it) right away.  IF we should sin, we have an Advocate with the Father.  IF IF IF. (1 John 2:1)

Listen to the following video of Charles Stanley and his false message.

Please consider.  If a person of his own power cannot stop sinning when he comes to Christ, why is it then he is STILL unable to stop AFTER salvation has supposedly taken place, where the sinner is supposed to be free from enslavement?  

Ed Young likes to call you a Super Sonic Sinner, like himself.  John Piper says Christians do nothing but black ball God every single day.  Speak for yourself, Mr. Piper.  These wolves (John Piper, Ed Young, Chuck Swindoll, Erwin Lutzer, John Ankerberg, John MacArthur, Charles Stanley, Rick Warren, Mark Driscoll, Greg Laurie, Josh McDowell, Joel Osteen, Paul Washer, Todd Bentley, etc. etc.) promise you liberty while they remain in bondage!

Take a minute to listen to the modern gospel proclaimed to the world by these wolves.

There are many reprobates and hypocrites posing as follower of Jesus Christ – pastors, teachers, theologians, Sunday school teachers, Facebook friends, etc. etc..  Many of them say they repent of their sins daily, thus, this relieves the pressure off their shoulders of living a holy life, thinking they are a shining example of how humble they are.  They brag that they are the wretched man of Romans 7 and the chief of sinners.  Their perfect excuse is that all people are BORN sinners and in bondage to their evil dispositions and vile behavior until GOD cleans them up, but the cleaning never comes.  They must wait for physical death, thus death becomes their savior.

Friends, do not listen to the lies of the enemy.  Jesus would not say such things as ‘go and sin no more’ if it were impossible.  Be holy. (1 Peter 14-17; 1 Cor. 15:35) 

More later…




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